WEBVTT

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Hello, my name is Dr. Julia Ossman, I'm the

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director of the Institute for the Humanities. I'm

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very happy to welcome you to this event. I am

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joined today by Dr. Greg Tweet Meyer, who is an

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associate professor in the Department of

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Kinesiology here at Mississippi State. Hello, Greg.

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How are you doing? Good, thanks. I'm also here

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with Dr. Scott Kretschmer, who is professor

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emeritus in the Department of Kinesiology at Penn

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State University. Hello, Dr. Kretschmer. Grevious,

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thank you both for being here this afternoon. So I

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understand that you both are in the Department of

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Kinesiology at your respective universities, but

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can you tell me a little bit more about what you

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specialize in and what you study?

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Sure. So I actually studied with Dr. Kretschmer at

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Penn State, I got my Ph.D. there. Between two

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thousand four 2008 and the history and philosophy

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of sport, and although the degree says history and

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philosophy, everybody that takes that PhD

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emphasizes one of the other. You have to do both

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to make yourself marketable, but you emphasize one

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of the other. So I emphasize philosophy with Dr.

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Kretzschmar and that's the main research focus

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that I have and teaching focus that I have here at

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Mississippi State.

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And I do philosophy of sport, I did it at Penn

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State, I'm still writing, even though I've been

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retired for a number of years. They keep asking me

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to teach and foolishly, I keep agreeing to do so.

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So I taught this last fall by Zoome. My first

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attempt at that,

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I studied philosophy at the University of Southern

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California and the philosophy department for my

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graduate work. But my degrees are all in physical

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education because I love sport. And so I've always

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been in physical education departments and I've

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always examined sport from the humanities side. So

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what is sports philosophy? Because when when I

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think of sports, I'm thinking of people playing on

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the field. Is it is it you know, do I take that

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shot or not? Take that shot. How how does this

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work?

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Either of you, you're both sports. Well, I mean, I

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would say it's it's all the branches of philosophy

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applied to the lived experience and reflection

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upon. The playing games that people love, so

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ethics is the most obvious area that people are

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aware of related to sport philosophy, you know,

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issues of Title nine, performance enhancing drugs,

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all the stuff you see in the news, cheating the

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Houston Astros, cheating their way to the World

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Series a couple of years ago and so forth. But

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it's broader than that, too. It's it's

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metaphysical questions. It's questions of

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aesthetics. What's beautiful about sport? Is there

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an objective definition of beautiful sport? Is

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soccer the beautiful game in an objective way? Is

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it better than baseball and so forth? I can I can

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answer that, Greg. It's not baseball is a much

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better game. But

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to to further answer Juliet's question, another

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major issue has to do whether a kind of a paradox.

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We humans put a lot of energy into things like

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baseball and some people call them silly games.

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They don't produce anything. You know, if you're

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just playing for fun, if you're playing for

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recreation, they don't make anything. And so we

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wonder why we spend so much emotional energy. I

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know you you folks down in Mississippi care a

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little bit about your football team down there.

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And I've seen some pictures of people yelling and

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putting paint on their face and doing really

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totally irrational things. We at Penn State would

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never do that. But why why do we care so much

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about play games, sport, dance? Things that are

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sort of on. The side of life, they're not directly

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related to our survival, but yet they mean so much

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to us. We philosophers, Greg, including Doctor

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Tweet me included, mess with those kinds of

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questions. And so you're talking about philosophy.

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But, Greg, you said that you had to kind of get

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your PhD in philosophy and history of sport. So

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are there other sports humanities besides

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philosophy and history? You mentioned ethics. You

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mentioned aesthetics is part of philosophy, but

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are there other things that people look at at

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sports that use human discipline in terms of

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academic disciplines that have thriving

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communities? It's basically three sport,

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philosophy, sport, history and sport sociology.

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You could throw in sports psychology there

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depending on where you slide psychology on that

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scale between the sciences and the humanities.

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Obviously, there is a humanistic strain in

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psychology. My read of psychology that pushed and

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pushed and pushed more in a scientific direction.

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But there's certainly sports psychology angles

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that could be taken related to the humanities and

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the other is the arts related to literature, film

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and so forth. So if one if somebody and by the way,

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I forgot to mention at the beginning, I have

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several questions for these sports humanists. But

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if any of our viewers or anybody listening, if you

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have a question for either Dr. Meyer or Dr.

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Kretschmer, if you could just put it in the

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comment section below the video that you're

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watching right now, I would love to ask it on your

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behalf or inject a comment on your behalf. So so

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please don't hesitate to ask your questions. But

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Greg and Dr. Cutch marketing, getting back to the

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questions that I was asking you a bit earlier. So,

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you know, you're talking about sport and art and

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sport and philosophy and sport and psychology and

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sport and social sciences. So if somebody wanted

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to study sports in that way or using that

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methodology, do most people have to study that

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discipline first and then just apply it to sports?

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Or can you study sports philosophy and sports

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psychology and sports social sciences as their own

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disciplines in various places? Let me start with

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that. Greg was one of a number of doctoral

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students I had at Penn State over the years, and I

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would interview all of the would be students

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before I accepted them into the program. And

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having an undergraduate major in philosophy was

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not a prerequisite, that I would take individuals

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who had majored in physiology or majored in

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business or majored in all different kinds of

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things. My prerequisite, something related to the

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humanities, they had to have experience and

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movement, human movement or some form sport

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exercise. I had one on one individual came who was

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a marathon runner because we philosophers deal

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with the subject of the lived experience of sport.

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I could not teach a student in three years all the

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experience they need as a football player or a

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baseball player or a runner, a bike or a swimmer,

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a skier. They had to come with that. And I think

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another thing that was important for me is that

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they they came with a passion, a love for that

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activity. It wasn't just an academic exercise for

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them. It wasn't for me. When I went to graduate

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school, I really wanted answers to questions about

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why sport, why physical activity. What does my

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body mean as a as a person? How am I related to

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this physical hunk of flesh that I carry around

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with me? And so those were the key things. And

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then I would say I could train them myself. And so

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between me and the philosophy department, over

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three years are a little more than three years, my

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students would get a good enough background to

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think, well, right. Well, like Dr. Meyer has done

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since he's graduated. I would I would follow up on

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that real quick, just with the little anecdote

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when I went out to interview

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at Penn State. I was in Dr. Christophers office on

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spring break two thousand four. There was nobody

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else around, recalls this big labyrinth. It was

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like getting through a maze to find him. And we I

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sat down at his desk and the first question he

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asked me, because this is how it's related to your

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initial question. I wasn't a philosophy major

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undergrad. I was an art major. And his first

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question was, what is art have to do a sport? And

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my immediate instinctual answer was play, which

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apparently is exactly what he wanted to hear.

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So if I can go back to something you all mentioned

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a little earlier, but that's very much related to

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what Greg just said, why do we need sports? Why do

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human beings care so much about people running

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around with a ball or a stick or whatever it is?

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Why why does this and it's it's interesting.

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Whenever I check the news, I like to look at the

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news on BBC, the British news website, and, you

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know, the top parts, all international news and

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who's waging war on who in politics and everything.

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And then the last third of the page is always an

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English football on this big international news

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site. So why do we care so much about sports?

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Give me the short answer, short answer is that

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people are meaning seeking creatures.

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We need to have purpose in our life, we have to

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have things we care about. We care about our

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spouses, our loved ones, our children, we care

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about our jobs and our vacations and the things

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we're dedicated to, but our caring doesn't stop

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there. And so I think the short answer is sport,

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for reasons that Greg and I have been researching

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for years attracts us it. Allows us to care deeply

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about something getting better, winning, rooting

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for a favorite team. There are lots of ways we

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care and support. In some ways it's like religion,

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because that's another place where we we grow it

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to life, caring deeply about how things come out.

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And so we invest, we trust, we have faith in sport

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requires very similar kinds of attitudes. I have

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heard football being called a religion in

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Mississippi many, many, many times, but you make a

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very a very good case there. Greg, do you have

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anything to add? I would just add the basic

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philosophic distinction of intrinsic versus

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extrinsic goods. One way usefulness and the

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extrinsic are our immediate priority is Dr.

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Kretschmer alluded to before. You know, if you

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don't have a roof over your head, food in your

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stomach, you're not going to be around for long.

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But once you take care of that immediate question

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is now what? And the intrinsic goods being good in

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themselves don't succumb to that problem, right,

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if something is beautiful, you pursue it simply

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for its own sake. And sport, like religion, is one

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of those realms of intrinsic value, intrinsic

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purpose, where we pursue the good, the true and

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the beautiful, simply because that's what it is,

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not because it's useful, because it will fill

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their stomach or fill our bank account, but

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because, as I said, we need meaning in our lives.

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And so we play sports. Well, it's not the only

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thing, hopefully, but yeah, absolutely, I think a

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lot of us do. Or if you're like myself, I'm not

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much of a player, but I certainly watch them.

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Right. We can if you think about food, for example,

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or nutrition that skates this line perfectly.

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Right. If you if you just talk to a nutritionist,

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they could just chop up the food, stick on a plate

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and say, here's what you want to eat. But the

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presentation, the cooking, the flavor, all that

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matters to. Right. We want to live well, not just

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live healthy. What Greg and I are talking about is

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something that's very important because to

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oversimplify matters, people in physical education

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and kinesiology tend to fall on one of two sides

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of the scale. And a number of my colleagues, some

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of them very good colleagues, because both sides

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of the scale have some arguments in favor of them.

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Many of my colleagues are public health people.

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They marched to the drummer of Good Health. The

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reason we exist in the public schools for the kids,

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the reason we exist in the colleges to promote

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health. And so we do push ups, sit ups and jumping

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jacks and we run people around the track. We try

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to help people lose weight. We try to keep people

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alive. You know, we carry Hunter-Gatherer kinds of

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cardiovascular systems that aren't meant for

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sitting. And statistics now show that sitting

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kills just like smoking cigarettes and doing other

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things. So that side of physical education is an

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important one. We want to live longer. We want to

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have energy and health. But Greg and I are birds

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of a feather on the other side of the coin. And I

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didn't give this to him. He came this way when he

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first met me. We care more about quality of life

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and then health becomes a byproduct. And I always

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tell my students, if you love to run, if you like

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to bicycle, if you love to ski, your heart rate's

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going to go up and you're going to have meaning in

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your life. And some of the psychologists that Greg

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mentioned or you mentioned earlier are showing

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that attitude matters to health. And so if we have

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a life filled with meaning and things we love

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doing, that in itself promotes health, even though

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that's not the main objective that I I'm in that

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for I taught school classes for year golf,

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distance running racquetball, and I was my main

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objective director was always to have the kids

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fall in love with the activity and the story. Yeah.

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Well, you're talking about kind of this sport as

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this very good thing is kind of this intrinsic

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good thing, and it's something that we do because

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we enjoy and we want to live very happy lives. And

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then if you're doing these things we enjoy, then

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we will be healthy as a as a as a result. But you

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also mentioned earlier sports ethics. And, you

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know, it's no secret right now that there are lots

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and lots of conversations about the ethics of

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various sports. Our student athletes really

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professional at this point. Should they be paid?

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Are they really amateurs? Should they not be paid?

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Would it kill university sports if we started

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paying athletes, et cetera? That's just one of

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many, many, many questions. People are worried

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about concussions and people are worried about the

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amount of money we pay professional athletes and

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the relationship between professional athletics

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and the Department of Defense in some cases and

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things like that. I've got a colleague who writes

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on this. So what are some of the the current

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ethical issues with professional or college sports

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that you are most worried about or you are

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following right now?

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Why would I would mention three that I don't get I,

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I don't think get enough attention. Hmm. The first

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is the growth of gambling in sports. And other

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than the obvious back and forth on that debate of

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the health of gambling as a pursuit. I think the

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larger issue that people really aren't talking

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about is the leagues getting in bed with the

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casinos. So Major League Baseball, for example,

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recently signed, as I believe, have all the other

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major American sports, a proprietary data contract

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with casinos in Las Vegas. Which means that

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they're advanced analytics statistics go to Vegas

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and Vegas, have inside information that the fans

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don't have, which means that the. Scales are

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tipped in the direction of the casinos even more,

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and baseball is making money indirectly off the

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backs of the average fan who is ignorant of the

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way the system set up to give proprietary data to

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the casino so that they're more likely to lose.

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The second one would be the issue of roadblocks.

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We tend to think of that purely as a technological

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issue, when will we have the technology to do it?

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Well. I think it's great. What is it that you just

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mentioned, robot arms, so should the strike zone

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be called by an umpire? Should it be called by

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computer? Oh, a robotic umpire.

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I would argue for a host of philosophical reasons

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that we don't necessarily need to get into any

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detail on that robots can't work, that even if

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they could work, it would be counterproductive. It

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would dehumanize baseball in important ways.

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And it would deny the reality of judgment, which

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is necessary in all human endeavor from the

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scientific deep bench sciences all the way down to

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the allegedly purely subjective humanities and so

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forth. And then the third one. It's probably the

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one I'm most worried about, and that is the

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professionalization of youth sport. Where we turn

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kids into little recruits at six, seven, eight,

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nine years old, I was just reading an article in

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the Athletic this week about parents paying tens

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of thousands of dollars to get their kids with

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quarterback gurus so they can land that big

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scholarship. And the lead example in this article.

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Was a father deciding his son would be a

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quarterback at age five?

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Hmm. Obviously, this isn't healthy for the kids,

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or at least there's a real danger, it's not going

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to be healthy for the kids, it's not healthy for

341
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any parents pocketbooks, and it immediately

342
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eliminates a whole bunch of kids for socioeconomic

343
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and other reasons from that deep, meaningful

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experience we're talking about because they get

345
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priced out of it or eliminated because they're not

346
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good enough at the ripe old age of seven, eight,

347
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nine years old. Wow. Well, and you're talking

348
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about that, that's making me think even of some

349
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things I've read about ballet grooming young,

350
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especially young women to be ballerinas when

351
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they're very, very, very little and in some ways

352
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risking the kind of love of sport or that kind of

353
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love of movement that you were talking about in

354
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the first place. What are you worried about, Dr.

355
00:19:37.370 --> 00:19:43.820
Kretschmer? Wow. I like the three that the Gregg

356
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chose.

357
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There's no shortage in sport, have ethical issues.

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I've been on panels on youth sports. I've been on

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panels dealing with whether athletes should be

360
00:19:58.010 --> 00:20:01.880
paid, college athletes should be paid or not. And

361
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I've been on panels that talk about drugs,

362
00:20:05.360 --> 00:20:07.880
anabolic steroids and whether or not they should

363
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be not allowed. So there are so many issues, I

364
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think some personal ones for me, one of them is an

365
00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:23.420
old issue is gender equity. Right. Title nine was

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a hot button one to put in place. And it's still a

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hot button politically. People who

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are on the men's side of athletics blame Title

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nine for the cutting of wrestling, the cutting of

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men's volleyball and some of the steamed because

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there's not enough money to go around. And they

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point the finger directly at the women and say, if

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we didn't have Title nine, those teams would still

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be here. I don't know what has happened in

375
00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:59.150
Mississippi in that regard, but number of schools

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and the Big Ten where we are have cut programs,

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particularly men's programs, to meet Title nine

378
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requirements. The statistics show that it's not

379
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Title nine, primarily, it's the exorbitant

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expenditures in men's football and men's

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basketball. If you look at the budget and any big

382
00:21:21.740 --> 00:21:25.760
Division One school, you'll see that ungodly

383
00:21:25.760 --> 00:21:30.050
amounts of money go to those programs. And so,

384
00:21:30.050 --> 00:21:33.650
yeah, if you're going to spend half your budget on

385
00:21:33.650 --> 00:21:37.640
those two front porch programs and they are

386
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:39.920
important programs for the visibility of our

387
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.470
schools, you're not going to have money left over

388
00:21:42.470 --> 00:21:44.720
for women's sports or men's sports, or at least

389
00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.590
not many of them. So I worry about Title nine,

390
00:21:49.280 --> 00:21:53.780
women's opportunities to play, by extension,

391
00:21:54.560 --> 00:21:57.500
handicapped kids, chances to play people who are

392
00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:01.160
sort of out of the mainstream of elite sport. So

393
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:03.860
it's kind of a play on Greg's idea of the youth

394
00:22:03.860 --> 00:22:07.040
sport, who are the people who don't have power and

395
00:22:07.040 --> 00:22:09.680
are not in the limelight? And are they getting

396
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.460
good sport experiences? Do they have a chance to

397
00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:17.120
fall in love with sport? Yeah, related to the

398
00:22:17.120 --> 00:22:19.250
piggyback off that larger theme, I would I would

399
00:22:19.250 --> 00:22:21.140
add another one, and that is the neglect and

400
00:22:21.140 --> 00:22:23.510
decline of physical education in our schools and

401
00:22:23.510 --> 00:22:25.520
arguably more importantly, in our colleges and

402
00:22:25.520 --> 00:22:28.910
universities, because there's a lot of kinesiology

403
00:22:28.910 --> 00:22:31.820
programs that are eliminating it as a major in

404
00:22:31.820 --> 00:22:35.510
their departments. So it's interesting that you

405
00:22:35.510 --> 00:22:37.310
bring this up, because I actually have a question

406
00:22:37.610 --> 00:22:39.500
on our Facebook page. And just a reminder, if you

407
00:22:39.500 --> 00:22:41.360
have a question for either of these gentlemen,

408
00:22:41.600 --> 00:22:43.400
please do put it in the comments section below the

409
00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:45.980
video and I'll be sure to ask it. But we do have a

410
00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:48.800
question for Mattie Bass asking if there are

411
00:22:48.800 --> 00:22:53.240
reoccurring gender differences that you see in the

412
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:57.560
sports humanities that you teach. So we not

413
00:22:57.560 --> 00:22:59.450
necessarily even in sports and in the sports

414
00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:02.030
humanities. Do you see if there are reoccurring

415
00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:05.450
gender differences to quote, as a predominantly

416
00:23:05.450 --> 00:23:07.940
male or female, the students who take your classes

417
00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:10.930
or who go into this field? Yes.

418
00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:15.760
OK, men on average are taller.

419
00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:23.560
That's indisputable, but I'm a little bit of a

420
00:23:23.560 --> 00:23:28.060
renegade on this because I'm not afraid of talking

421
00:23:28.060 --> 00:23:30.160
about the differences. My daughter played Division

422
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:33.460
one basketball, so I've got women in the family

423
00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:35.120
who are very gifted athletically.

424
00:23:38.470 --> 00:23:40.990
The big question, one of the big questions is it

425
00:23:40.990 --> 00:23:44.050
matter who asks the question? Yes. One of the big

426
00:23:44.050 --> 00:23:47.290
questions Mattey has to do with whether it's

427
00:23:47.290 --> 00:23:50.770
nature or nurture know are women raised

428
00:23:50.770 --> 00:23:53.710
differently in our culture enough differently that

429
00:23:53.710 --> 00:23:56.230
they think differently, they play differently,

430
00:23:56.470 --> 00:24:00.220
they compete differently and so forth. Or is there

431
00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:03.010
something more fundamental to our biological

432
00:24:03.010 --> 00:24:05.380
makeup that we've come into the world oriented

433
00:24:05.380 --> 00:24:09.130
just a little bit differently on the male side, on

434
00:24:09.130 --> 00:24:11.620
the female side, and all the blends in between the

435
00:24:11.620 --> 00:24:17.470
two binary categories of male female? I think it's

436
00:24:17.470 --> 00:24:21.520
both. And I think there's a degree of of nature.

437
00:24:22.060 --> 00:24:25.780
We are different by nature, to a small degree.

438
00:24:25.780 --> 00:24:29.440
We're human, mostly to a small degree. I think by

439
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.840
nature we're a little different. And then, of

440
00:24:31.840 --> 00:24:35.560
course, by our upbringing, how how we're raised to

441
00:24:35.560 --> 00:24:40.000
think of ourselves and our gender is different. So

442
00:24:40.330 --> 00:24:43.510
there are a lot of interesting issues about

443
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:47.560
whether men should coach women sports because men

444
00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:49.750
have been raised differently to think differently

445
00:24:49.750 --> 00:24:52.570
about sports and maybe genetically they're a

446
00:24:52.570 --> 00:24:54.970
little bit different to or should women coach

447
00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:59.110
women sports. And now there are a number of

448
00:24:59.110 --> 00:25:03.280
questions about the in between people, you know,

449
00:25:03.280 --> 00:25:07.810
people who are not clearly one gender or the other.

450
00:25:08.050 --> 00:25:10.810
They're transgender and they're questions of

451
00:25:10.810 --> 00:25:14.650
fairness. They're questions of opportunity. Where

452
00:25:14.650 --> 00:25:17.950
should they compete? How should they compete? And

453
00:25:18.280 --> 00:25:20.530
as you're probably aware in the in the media,

454
00:25:20.530 --> 00:25:24.190
there are a lot of hot issues about Caster Semenya

455
00:25:24.580 --> 00:25:28.330
and whether her unusual biological makeup should

456
00:25:28.330 --> 00:25:32.680
keep her from competing in women's categories. So

457
00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:36.370
gender is an important issue. And from my

458
00:25:36.370 --> 00:25:40.090
perspective, I don't get hung up on sex. I hope I

459
00:25:40.090 --> 00:25:42.550
get hung up on people who don't get a chance to

460
00:25:42.550 --> 00:25:46.360
play. And I don't want gender to get in the way of

461
00:25:46.360 --> 00:25:46.660
that.

462
00:25:52.780 --> 00:25:54.670
Greg, did you want to add something to that

463
00:25:54.670 --> 00:25:55.510
question or

464
00:25:58.150 --> 00:26:00.820
do you think you can just. Well, I would say I

465
00:26:00.820 --> 00:26:03.340
would echo his thoughts that it's a hot button

466
00:26:03.340 --> 00:26:07.600
issue. I think there's a deep connection to

467
00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:09.670
metaphysics and the nature of the human person

468
00:26:09.670 --> 00:26:13.140
there that needs more attention. Dr. Kretschmer

469
00:26:13.360 --> 00:26:17.410
mentioned before, you know, what am I why do I

470
00:26:17.410 --> 00:26:19.690
have a body? What is my body? Is my body, me?

471
00:26:20.470 --> 00:26:23.770
That's all related to that issue. It's such a hot

472
00:26:23.770 --> 00:26:25.900
button issue. I don't think that there's enough

473
00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:30.220
careful, considerate, dispassionate analysis that

474
00:26:30.220 --> 00:26:36.040
goes on my wrist for any if there any untenured

475
00:26:36.040 --> 00:26:38.740
professors listening out there. Don't do your

476
00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:42.590
research on that until you get tenured. I would

477
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:47.560
agree that advice. It's whatever you think on that

478
00:26:47.560 --> 00:26:49.660
issue. It's a it's an issue that's not going to go

479
00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:55.300
away. Right. And there's also another comment here

480
00:26:55.300 --> 00:26:58.150
on our Facebook comments. This is from George Dunn.

481
00:26:58.150 --> 00:27:00.760
And I think relating back to what you were saying

482
00:27:00.760 --> 00:27:01.930
earlier, Greg, about

483
00:27:04.270 --> 00:27:06.970
the problem with gambling and also the problem

484
00:27:06.970 --> 00:27:09.970
with robotic umpires. He's posted an article about

485
00:27:09.970 --> 00:27:13.570
how baseball is more than a sport, but it isn't an

486
00:27:13.570 --> 00:27:15.730
example of a functioning legal system. It's its

487
00:27:15.730 --> 00:27:19.240
own legal system. And that kind of leads me to ask,

488
00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:21.970
you know, to what extent does professional

489
00:27:21.970 --> 00:27:26.410
baseball or football or any sport or the SCC or

490
00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:29.320
the NBA or any large professional sports

491
00:27:29.320 --> 00:27:31.120
organization or quasi professional sports

492
00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:35.080
organization? Care what you guys think. Are you in

493
00:27:35.080 --> 00:27:38.620
dialogue with any of these companies that you make

494
00:27:38.620 --> 00:27:40.810
money off of athletes or that organize the

495
00:27:40.810 --> 00:27:42.760
athletics? Or do you just kind of sit on the

496
00:27:42.760 --> 00:27:45.250
benches and make commentary from a distance?

497
00:27:47.670 --> 00:27:51.180
Well, by and large answers, no, they don't care

498
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.850
what we think, that's not absolutely true. The

499
00:27:53.850 --> 00:27:57.630
NCAA reached out and had a symposium that Dr.

500
00:27:57.630 --> 00:27:59.940
Kretschmer was part of between academics and

501
00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:02.520
coaches and administrators, what, about 10, 15

502
00:28:02.520 --> 00:28:05.070
years ago now? Yeah, when Myles Brand was

503
00:28:05.070 --> 00:28:06.030
president of the NCAA.

504
00:28:09.010 --> 00:28:11.530
Occasionally you will have a journalist or

505
00:28:11.530 --> 00:28:13.870
somebody reach out to you. I had somebody from the

506
00:28:13.870 --> 00:28:17.320
Houston Chronicle do that to me about four or five

507
00:28:17.320 --> 00:28:21.160
months ago related to the Astro scandal. But our

508
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:25.920
influence is almost always in direct. One of the

509
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:30.480
places where we have had an impact is on the issue

510
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.570
of policies regarding performance enhancement,

511
00:28:33.570 --> 00:28:40.050
drug taking, the IOC, the USOC, the Olympic

512
00:28:40.050 --> 00:28:44.940
committees have invited train philosophers of

513
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:48.540
sport to sit on their panels to help them work

514
00:28:48.540 --> 00:28:52.580
through rationales for the drug policies.

515
00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:55.950
Typically, these organizations, partly because of

516
00:28:55.950 --> 00:29:00.450
public pressure, are anti-drug. There are other

517
00:29:00.450 --> 00:29:03.480
reasons to health reasons and so forth. But for

518
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.900
public relations reasons, most people prefer to

519
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:10.770
think of sport as drug free and so forth. And so

520
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.300
philosophers are needed to be at the table to talk

521
00:29:15.300 --> 00:29:19.200
about good reasons for why we prohibit this and

522
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:23.520
why we allow that. Well, you know, why do we allow

523
00:29:24.090 --> 00:29:27.000
a certain chemical to go into our bodies, but we

524
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:29.990
don't allow another chemical to go into our bodies?

525
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.280
What's what's the reason? And. The institutions

526
00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:38.130
are interested in making sure that fancy it's not

527
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.090
arbitrary, you know, they're not just saying

528
00:29:42.300 --> 00:29:44.460
arbitrarily, I say you're not allowed to drink

529
00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:47.730
coffee before you go to a soccer game. There needs

530
00:29:47.730 --> 00:29:49.950
to be a reason for it and it needs to be

531
00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:52.320
articulated well. And philosophers are good at

532
00:29:52.320 --> 00:29:57.720
giving reasons, articulating, and so they call on

533
00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:01.320
us. And Greg mentioned the scholarly colloquium

534
00:30:01.320 --> 00:30:05.940
for the NCAA. Myles Brand, who died of pancreatic

535
00:30:05.940 --> 00:30:10.320
cancer tragically a number of years ago now, was

536
00:30:10.320 --> 00:30:15.270
an unusual president of the NCAA. Usually

537
00:30:15.570 --> 00:30:20.760
administrators of multi million dollar enterprises

538
00:30:20.760 --> 00:30:24.180
like the NCAA want to keep academics at arm's

539
00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:28.230
length. They don't trust us because we tend to be

540
00:30:28.230 --> 00:30:31.830
critical, right. We tend to say, you know, you're

541
00:30:31.830 --> 00:30:35.880
not doing it right and so forth. Myles Brand was

542
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.600
different and he was a philosopher of sport like I

543
00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:41.640
am. And that's why I got involved. And he called

544
00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.540
me one day and said, we need to get academics more

545
00:30:45.540 --> 00:30:49.680
engaged in studying intercollegiate sport. And I

546
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.570
said to him, Aren't you afraid if you start

547
00:30:51.570 --> 00:30:54.390
inviting people like Greg and me under the tent

548
00:30:54.840 --> 00:30:56.640
that it's going to get worse? You know, we're just

549
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:58.700
going to be throwing hand grenades at you guys.

550
00:30:59.100 --> 00:31:03.370
And he said no. He said, I believe. In the on

551
00:31:03.370 --> 00:31:08.710
balance, college sport is very good for kids. That

552
00:31:08.710 --> 00:31:12.130
was his deep belief and he said, if we have good

553
00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:14.950
scholars looking at that, they're going to be some

554
00:31:14.950 --> 00:31:17.770
negative things. He can do their problems in big

555
00:31:17.770 --> 00:31:20.680
time sport especially. But he said if we have good

556
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:22.840
scholars looking at it, the goods are going to

557
00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:26.290
come out, too. So I want good scholars studying

558
00:31:26.290 --> 00:31:30.610
intercollegiate sport. And for a brief, shining

559
00:31:30.610 --> 00:31:33.820
moment of about seven years, we have a scholarly

560
00:31:33.820 --> 00:31:39.640
colloquium at annual NCAA meetings. And Miles and

561
00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:41.410
I started to journal the Journal of

562
00:31:41.410 --> 00:31:43.750
Intercollegiate Sports that still exists today

563
00:31:44.410 --> 00:31:48.010
where there's hopefully good scholarship on

564
00:31:48.010 --> 00:31:52.270
intercollegiate athletics. So there should be a

565
00:31:52.270 --> 00:31:55.540
marriage. But Greg's right. By and large, they

566
00:31:55.540 --> 00:31:59.200
keep us away. Hmm. I'm sorry to hear that, because

567
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.230
it just as a as as a humanist or just even as a

568
00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:04.810
teacher, someone who teaches at a university. I

569
00:32:05.020 --> 00:32:08.830
have taught at two very sports heavy universities.

570
00:32:08.830 --> 00:32:11.830
And you get college athletes. And, you know,

571
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:15.700
sometimes it's just very clear that like, oh, your

572
00:32:15.700 --> 00:32:18.510
level of preparation indicates that, you know,

573
00:32:18.580 --> 00:32:21.010
maybe you're not quite ready to be in this class

574
00:32:21.010 --> 00:32:23.230
yet, but somehow they managed to get here anyway.

575
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:26.260
You kind of wonder how this happened and things or

576
00:32:26.260 --> 00:32:28.180
you get very worried. I used to get very worried

577
00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:31.630
that, you know, I'm teaching this very basic

578
00:32:31.630 --> 00:32:33.430
things right now. But then when I ask you to write

579
00:32:33.430 --> 00:32:37.060
a very long paper in about two weeks, and I'm sure

580
00:32:37.060 --> 00:32:39.520
I'm going to get a paper from you, quite sure what

581
00:32:39.520 --> 00:32:43.360
the paper will come from and things like that. But

582
00:32:43.360 --> 00:32:46.000
it's you know, you don't you're not always

583
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:47.770
encouraged to ask too many questions about these

584
00:32:47.770 --> 00:32:51.220
kinds of things. So I guess my follow up question

585
00:32:51.220 --> 00:32:52.960
for you then is, you know, you seem very

586
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:55.900
impassioned about, you know, some of the ethical

587
00:32:55.900 --> 00:32:57.730
problems that you see in sport. You both are very

588
00:32:57.730 --> 00:32:59.740
concerned about access. You're both very concerned

589
00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:02.590
about sports staying, for lack of a better word,

590
00:33:02.590 --> 00:33:06.490
fun and meaningful to the people who play them. So

591
00:33:06.490 --> 00:33:09.910
does this kind of lead on that? You both that

592
00:33:10.120 --> 00:33:12.520
being a sports philosopher or sports humanist

593
00:33:12.520 --> 00:33:15.850
leads to some kind of activism. Do you find

594
00:33:15.850 --> 00:33:19.450
yourself, you know, trying to influence policy or

595
00:33:19.450 --> 00:33:24.730
legislation regarding gambling or, you know, how

596
00:33:24.730 --> 00:33:27.370
old children have to be to be involved in certain

597
00:33:27.370 --> 00:33:32.360
sports or things like that? I am speaking for

598
00:33:32.360 --> 00:33:34.070
myself, I would say it really depends on your

599
00:33:34.070 --> 00:33:36.110
definition of activism. If you have a broad

600
00:33:36.110 --> 00:33:40.420
definition, I would say absolutely. I coach youth

601
00:33:40.420 --> 00:33:42.940
soccer. I've been very involved in the Starchild

602
00:33:43.420 --> 00:33:48.340
Soccer Association. I run a camp here and in West

603
00:33:48.340 --> 00:33:53.500
Virginia for the last seven, eight years to help

604
00:33:53.500 --> 00:33:55.780
teach special needs children how to ride a bike.

605
00:33:57.220 --> 00:33:59.530
That all falls on a philosophy, in fact, I learned

606
00:33:59.530 --> 00:34:01.600
about the program because I was I was searching

607
00:34:01.600 --> 00:34:04.030
for examples to use in my sport philosophy class.

608
00:34:04.780 --> 00:34:07.090
And then when I realized it was something to

609
00:34:07.090 --> 00:34:10.120
travel around the country, I said, well, why can't

610
00:34:10.120 --> 00:34:13.120
it be here? And maybe it should be here. And if I

611
00:34:13.120 --> 00:34:14.720
don't do anything about it, nobody is going to.

612
00:34:15.940 --> 00:34:21.190
And so forth. So I would be a little hesitant only

613
00:34:21.190 --> 00:34:24.160
because the word activism in day to day

614
00:34:24.160 --> 00:34:26.950
conversation tends to skew to one side of the

615
00:34:26.950 --> 00:34:30.010
political spectrum and always being political in

616
00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:32.410
the sense of being engaged in your community and

617
00:34:32.410 --> 00:34:36.040
putting philosophy into practice and using what

618
00:34:36.040 --> 00:34:37.630
you've learned to try and make the world a better

619
00:34:37.630 --> 00:34:39.460
place, I would think every scholar does that.

620
00:34:42.020 --> 00:34:46.700
I was in a situation in the year 2000 where I was

621
00:34:47.180 --> 00:34:50.090
happy doing my research on my teaching, and

622
00:34:50.090 --> 00:34:53.090
somebody approached me and said, would you be

623
00:34:53.090 --> 00:34:55.280
willing to be the faculty athletics rep to the

624
00:34:55.280 --> 00:35:00.680
NCAA for Penn State University? And my initial

625
00:35:00.680 --> 00:35:04.430
reaction was, of course not, I've got plenty to do,

626
00:35:04.430 --> 00:35:07.760
and why would I stick my finger into that mess?

627
00:35:08.210 --> 00:35:12.290
And the long and short of it is I eventually did

628
00:35:12.290 --> 00:35:16.700
say yes and did it. And it was an interesting

629
00:35:16.700 --> 00:35:18.560
experience because

630
00:35:21.350 --> 00:35:24.800
I had to walk a line between being the kind of

631
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.230
activist that Greg was talking about, the one that

632
00:35:27.230 --> 00:35:31.160
gets, you know, the bad name for being a super

633
00:35:31.160 --> 00:35:34.550
critic of everything that's going on. Because I

634
00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:37.580
had to have a relationship with the coaches. I had

635
00:35:37.580 --> 00:35:40.460
to have a reasonably positive relationship with

636
00:35:40.460 --> 00:35:43.700
the coaches. But I'm an ethics teacher, for

637
00:35:43.700 --> 00:35:47.990
heaven's sakes. I have to call a spade a spade

638
00:35:48.500 --> 00:35:53.360
when something bad happens in real big trouble. If

639
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:56.630
you don't, as North Carolina makes clear, because

640
00:35:56.630 --> 00:35:59.630
one of the major actors there wasn't sports ethics

641
00:35:59.630 --> 00:36:03.620
teacher. Yeah, yeah. We I could tell you so many

642
00:36:03.620 --> 00:36:06.020
war stories. Some of them. Well, I can't tell them

643
00:36:06.020 --> 00:36:10.760
publicly, but I have many war stories that have to

644
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:13.070
do with ethics, with professors calling me on the

645
00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:16.850
phone, for example, saying the starting linebacker

646
00:36:16.850 --> 00:36:19.550
for Penn State football team was cheating on my

647
00:36:19.550 --> 00:36:24.430
test this afternoon. What should I do? I I can

648
00:36:24.430 --> 00:36:27.370
tell you that story, I had a very easy answer to

649
00:36:27.370 --> 00:36:31.780
that. I said, you do exactly the same thing you

650
00:36:31.780 --> 00:36:34.810
would do for any other student at Penn State

651
00:36:34.810 --> 00:36:40.350
University. Do not change your behavior because

652
00:36:40.350 --> 00:36:42.630
he's a starting linebacker on the football team,

653
00:36:42.930 --> 00:36:45.630
you're in charge of your classroom, you have the

654
00:36:45.630 --> 00:36:48.360
standards for your class, treat him like you would

655
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.750
treat the other kids. But, you know, I had all

656
00:36:51.750 --> 00:36:56.100
kinds. There's a famous 20 hour rule that is

657
00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:58.500
athletes are not allowed to spend more than 20

658
00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:03.240
hours a week by NCAA rules on required athletic

659
00:37:03.240 --> 00:37:07.710
activities. Keyword. Yeah, required athletic. It

660
00:37:07.710 --> 00:37:10.260
doesn't count competition. This is practice, chalk

661
00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:14.490
talk, weight sessions and so forth. I had a young

662
00:37:14.490 --> 00:37:17.700
lady walk into my office one day and said, Dr.

663
00:37:17.700 --> 00:37:20.910
Kretschmer, I have to tell you that our coach is

664
00:37:20.910 --> 00:37:25.230
just violating the 20 hour rule from start to

665
00:37:25.230 --> 00:37:28.170
finish. We're spending 30 hours at least a week

666
00:37:28.170 --> 00:37:36.540
required to be on this person's team. And so this

667
00:37:36.540 --> 00:37:39.240
was a coach of a big name team and a big name

668
00:37:39.240 --> 00:37:42.660
coach had to go to the to the coach and say, hey,

669
00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:46.020
cut it out. These kids are students. They have a

670
00:37:46.020 --> 00:37:48.750
life. And I know you're under a lot of pressure to

671
00:37:48.750 --> 00:37:55.350
win, but. Cut it back, play by the rules, and so,

672
00:37:56.010 --> 00:37:58.290
you know, there were there were difficult kinds of

673
00:37:58.290 --> 00:38:04.070
situations, but it overall it was a good situation,

674
00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:07.440
fortunately for me, state, because most of the

675
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.820
coaches were very good about trying to balance the

676
00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:17.190
student athlete requirements. And so, yeah, and I

677
00:38:17.190 --> 00:38:19.560
coached Little League and million stories like

678
00:38:19.560 --> 00:38:24.510
grade two to try to do it the right way. And good

679
00:38:24.510 --> 00:38:29.370
people. When I gave a talk on little person sport,

680
00:38:30.660 --> 00:38:34.260
they were asking, what would you do to reform kids

681
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:38.100
sports? I had two answers. Give the kids new

682
00:38:38.100 --> 00:38:38.610
parents

683
00:38:41.580 --> 00:38:44.910
and the second was give them a different coach.

684
00:38:47.520 --> 00:38:51.240
That's where a lot of the trouble comes. And my

685
00:38:51.240 --> 00:38:54.030
own experience in teaching my daughter soccer and

686
00:38:54.030 --> 00:38:55.220
my son baseball,

687
00:38:57.720 --> 00:38:59.700
where do you find yourself when you would go to

688
00:38:59.700 --> 00:39:01.530
their games? Would you find yourself being that

689
00:39:01.530 --> 00:39:04.050
parent saying no could get over there and you

690
00:39:04.110 --> 00:39:08.070
could put in or were you very good at sitting on

691
00:39:08.070 --> 00:39:10.050
your hands since you knew what was to be that

692
00:39:10.050 --> 00:39:12.480
coach? I was 50 50.

693
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:20.850
I was pretty good. And but yeah, it's emotional.

694
00:39:20.850 --> 00:39:24.540
When you're kids out there, you can't rationalize

695
00:39:24.540 --> 00:39:29.160
it. You care because your eyes follow your kid,

696
00:39:29.730 --> 00:39:32.160
even though rationally I know every other kid out

697
00:39:32.160 --> 00:39:35.040
there is equally deserving of my eyes. You follow

698
00:39:35.040 --> 00:39:38.370
your kid and it's just the way we are as parents.

699
00:39:38.370 --> 00:39:41.190
We love our kids and we want them to do well. And

700
00:39:41.190 --> 00:39:44.580
so, yeah, I don't apologize for that. It's part of

701
00:39:44.580 --> 00:39:47.340
human nature. It's part of, I think, being a good

702
00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:50.620
parent. You love your kids. More than you love

703
00:39:50.620 --> 00:39:52.690
somebody else's kids, you hope they have parents

704
00:39:52.690 --> 00:39:56.360
who love them like you love your kids, but yeah,

705
00:39:56.720 --> 00:40:00.790
you know, so so these it's interesting because on

706
00:40:00.790 --> 00:40:02.800
one hand, I'm hearing you talk and you all study

707
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:05.260
kinesiology and you study sport and it is your

708
00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:08.380
life. And on the other side, you have the coaches

709
00:40:08.380 --> 00:40:10.870
like the kind that you were in communication with.

710
00:40:10.870 --> 00:40:13.390
Dr. Kretschmer in sport is their life and sport is

711
00:40:13.390 --> 00:40:15.790
their passion and everything. But you all seem to

712
00:40:15.790 --> 00:40:18.800
come at it from very different perspectives. You

713
00:40:18.820 --> 00:40:21.790
do coaches, do they have to take sports,

714
00:40:21.790 --> 00:40:23.920
humanities or some kind of sports man is at some

715
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:26.890
point in their training or in their education even

716
00:40:26.890 --> 00:40:28.840
just is like a check in the block. If you want to

717
00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:31.240
go into sports management or training or coaching

718
00:40:31.240 --> 00:40:35.380
or any of those more practical professions, a lot

719
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:41.980
of them do, but not because they have to. So. Most

720
00:40:41.980 --> 00:40:45.100
of the college and above coaches end up starting

721
00:40:45.100 --> 00:40:49.060
with the gay somewhere, this issue of the coach

722
00:40:49.690 --> 00:40:51.760
and they have to be in a graduate program to be on

723
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.580
the gay and sports administration, sport

724
00:40:54.580 --> 00:40:57.700
management and so forth is a common choice because

725
00:40:57.700 --> 00:41:00.490
of their interests. And most of those programs are

726
00:41:00.490 --> 00:41:02.800
going to have an ethics class if the program's

727
00:41:02.890 --> 00:41:03.940
anything close to.

728
00:41:06.160 --> 00:41:11.320
Accredited, but, you know, if if you've got the

729
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:13.420
connections, you're the starting linebacker at

730
00:41:14.050 --> 00:41:16.780
Ohio State or whatever, and you go to your coach

731
00:41:16.780 --> 00:41:18.760
and say, I think I want to be a coach, too. And he

732
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:22.480
dials up from his Rolodex, six or seven people

733
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:25.000
that might need sugar. And they say, oh, yeah, we

734
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:26.710
know we really want to admire Meyer. He was a

735
00:41:26.710 --> 00:41:28.900
great linebacker at Ohio State. I don't care what

736
00:41:28.900 --> 00:41:31.360
you're majoring in. So there's a lot of coaches

737
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.600
with no academic background in sport at all. You

738
00:41:35.770 --> 00:41:38.350
know, the biggest predictor that I've seen and

739
00:41:38.350 --> 00:41:42.710
getting college level coaching jobs is connections.

740
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:47.110
Who did you play for? Who did you assistant coach

741
00:41:47.110 --> 00:41:52.990
under? It's a networking kind of system. And so

742
00:41:52.990 --> 00:41:55.540
your credentials and whether or not you took a

743
00:41:55.540 --> 00:41:58.270
sport ethics class are so far down on the list,

744
00:41:58.660 --> 00:42:02.410
they're invisible, but your behavior is not

745
00:42:02.410 --> 00:42:06.430
invisible. And so there are some schools that will

746
00:42:06.430 --> 00:42:09.610
stay away from a coach who has a track record

747
00:42:09.790 --> 00:42:12.820
that's questionable. That's that's done some

748
00:42:12.820 --> 00:42:15.850
things. One of my jobs as faculty rep at Penn

749
00:42:15.850 --> 00:42:18.910
State was to be on searches of major coaching

750
00:42:18.910 --> 00:42:22.180
hires. A men's basketball was one of them when I

751
00:42:22.180 --> 00:42:25.690
was the ten years I did it. And we brought in some

752
00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.260
really big name coaches. I mean, names that

753
00:42:29.260 --> 00:42:31.660
everybody here listening would would know right

754
00:42:31.660 --> 00:42:34.570
off the bat. And we were at a meeting with the

755
00:42:34.570 --> 00:42:38.000
president and so forth and. We were debating

756
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.670
whether or not to to make an offer to this big

757
00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:42.680
name coach, because we don't have good basketball

758
00:42:42.680 --> 00:42:46.970
at Penn State. We need support. So everybody sort

759
00:42:46.970 --> 00:42:49.310
of rooting that we get in a big name coach to turn

760
00:42:49.310 --> 00:42:53.900
the program around and the president turn to our

761
00:42:53.900 --> 00:42:56.930
athletic director and said, are you OK with this

762
00:42:56.930 --> 00:43:00.140
hire? And our athletic director, who had done a

763
00:43:00.140 --> 00:43:02.600
lot of research with other coaches in the Big Ten

764
00:43:02.600 --> 00:43:06.290
and done some work on this coach we were thinking

765
00:43:06.290 --> 00:43:09.800
about said I'm not, because I would think within

766
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:12.740
three years we'll have an NCAA investigation here

767
00:43:13.100 --> 00:43:18.290
about wrongdoing. The coach was known to do run

768
00:43:18.290 --> 00:43:21.710
around the rules a little bit, said the president

769
00:43:21.710 --> 00:43:23.390
said, that's all I need to hear. We're not going

770
00:43:23.390 --> 00:43:26.780
to do it. And we hired in a different direction.

771
00:43:27.270 --> 00:43:30.350
So coaching behavior does make a difference in

772
00:43:30.350 --> 00:43:34.580
some schools. But, boy, one of the things that

773
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.240
upsets me as much as anything is seeing a coach

774
00:43:38.240 --> 00:43:42.830
getting fired at school for malpractice and then

775
00:43:42.830 --> 00:43:47.100
getting hired at Scoby for a higher salary. Oh,

776
00:43:47.240 --> 00:43:49.430
within three years, he can be fired from there for

777
00:43:49.430 --> 00:43:51.950
malpractice because he wins. That's what matters.

778
00:43:53.100 --> 00:43:58.130
Do you just stay on the positive side? There is

779
00:43:58.130 --> 00:44:01.460
been a slow, emphasize, slow but steady growth in

780
00:44:01.460 --> 00:44:05.500
coaching education majors. Oklahoma State, for

781
00:44:05.500 --> 00:44:08.680
example, has a very well regarded program. The

782
00:44:08.680 --> 00:44:11.350
problem with that, of course, is not required and

783
00:44:11.350 --> 00:44:14.740
the students that go into it tend to end up at the

784
00:44:14.740 --> 00:44:17.140
lower levels, high schools and so forth, which is

785
00:44:17.140 --> 00:44:18.980
good for those high schools, assuming the programs

786
00:44:18.980 --> 00:44:22.450
are doing a good job. But ethical pressures, the

787
00:44:22.450 --> 00:44:23.770
temptations are, of course, you know,

788
00:44:23.770 --> 00:44:27.130
exponentially higher. The higher you go, so it's.

789
00:44:28.990 --> 00:44:32.500
You no way not serving where the demand ought to

790
00:44:32.500 --> 00:44:37.210
be the greatest, right? So so, Dr. Kretschmer, if

791
00:44:37.210 --> 00:44:40.450
I may, you brought up salary a few minutes ago,

792
00:44:41.230 --> 00:44:45.070
and that was kind of making me wonder, does money

793
00:44:45.070 --> 00:44:48.280
ruin sports? And I ask that because, you know, the

794
00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:51.220
big money making sports tend to be the ones that

795
00:44:51.220 --> 00:44:53.530
seem to attract the most controversy or the most

796
00:44:53.530 --> 00:44:58.780
ethical violations. I mean, I hear a lot of

797
00:44:58.780 --> 00:45:01.630
conversation about, you know, college students and

798
00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:03.790
football or college students in baseball or

799
00:45:03.790 --> 00:45:06.070
college students and basketball. I hear a lot less

800
00:45:06.070 --> 00:45:08.650
concern about college students and track or

801
00:45:08.650 --> 00:45:10.630
college students in wrestling or college students

802
00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:12.670
in some of those sports that don't make money for

803
00:45:12.670 --> 00:45:15.670
the university. So if we just cut money from

804
00:45:15.670 --> 00:45:18.070
sports, would all of our problems be solved?

805
00:45:20.260 --> 00:45:23.350
Well, some there are a lot of reform models out

806
00:45:23.350 --> 00:45:26.230
there, and one of them is to do that hive off

807
00:45:26.230 --> 00:45:32.950
basketball, football, hockey. They're up here. I

808
00:45:32.950 --> 00:45:35.080
don't know if you guys don't play hockey. Right. I

809
00:45:35.080 --> 00:45:37.780
don't know what baseball would be analogous down

810
00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:41.470
here. OK, hive off the sports that make your money

811
00:45:42.070 --> 00:45:45.610
and put them in a separate category. And then you

812
00:45:45.610 --> 00:45:48.610
can have different rules and different protocols

813
00:45:48.610 --> 00:45:51.880
and different salaries for coaches in the non

814
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:55.660
moneymaking sports. And they'd be more like

815
00:45:57.370 --> 00:46:00.370
Division three. You know, we've been talking so

816
00:46:00.370 --> 00:46:04.450
much Division one here. Division three is big time

817
00:46:04.450 --> 00:46:07.570
sport. I mean, they're more away, more Division

818
00:46:07.570 --> 00:46:10.210
three schools and division one, I think. And there

819
00:46:10.210 --> 00:46:12.730
are a lot of kids who are having good experiences

820
00:46:12.730 --> 00:46:16.240
at the Division three level or the NCAA level,

821
00:46:16.240 --> 00:46:19.480
speaking as a former NFL and a high level and

822
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:22.030
their coaches are not making a million dollars or

823
00:46:22.630 --> 00:46:24.730
five million or six million like our football

824
00:46:24.730 --> 00:46:28.630
coach. So, you know, there's a lot of college

825
00:46:28.630 --> 00:46:32.380
sport that is not money driven. I went to a

826
00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:36.490
liberal arts school and all admission was free.

827
00:46:37.090 --> 00:46:40.420
You couldn't buy a ticket if you tried. You just

828
00:46:40.540 --> 00:46:43.500
went to the game, but nobody went. We played

829
00:46:44.110 --> 00:46:47.860
without too many people because it was it was

830
00:46:47.860 --> 00:46:51.250
amateur sport. It was sport for the fun of it. And,

831
00:46:52.090 --> 00:46:53.710
you know, we didn't need to have one hundred

832
00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:56.140
thousand people yelling for us, as exciting as

833
00:46:56.150 --> 00:47:01.390
that is. So, yeah, money money's a problem, but

834
00:47:01.780 --> 00:47:05.470
big time sport is not going away. And I've been on

835
00:47:05.470 --> 00:47:09.310
so many reform panels that I know it's not going

836
00:47:09.310 --> 00:47:12.790
to happen unless what some reformers refer to as a

837
00:47:12.790 --> 00:47:16.450
tsunami. But there has to be something so

838
00:47:16.450 --> 00:47:21.310
egregiously bad that it blows up the system and

839
00:47:21.400 --> 00:47:24.850
people sit back and say, we can't do this anymore.

840
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:28.570
The marriage of education and big time sport is

841
00:47:28.570 --> 00:47:32.110
killing the reputation of higher education. We've

842
00:47:32.110 --> 00:47:35.800
got to divorce ourselves, but we've got a lot of

843
00:47:35.800 --> 00:47:39.580
very big events. That's what I was just about to

844
00:47:39.580 --> 00:47:43.390
say. If you say Penn State, Michigan State, Baylor,

845
00:47:43.390 --> 00:47:46.750
what do you think? Yeah, we've had a lot. I think

846
00:47:46.750 --> 00:47:51.520
Baylor, North Carolina. Yeah. It's that isn't a

847
00:47:51.520 --> 00:47:54.790
big enough tsunami. One that Greg mentioned,

848
00:47:54.790 --> 00:47:57.010
interestingly, has been brought up on some of the

849
00:47:57.010 --> 00:48:02.020
reform groups I've sat on, and that's gambling. If

850
00:48:02.020 --> 00:48:04.390
it turns out that someday there's systematic

851
00:48:04.390 --> 00:48:08.710
gambling, fixing of games, big time sport,

852
00:48:10.030 --> 00:48:14.170
reasonably ratio that could kill the goose, that

853
00:48:14.170 --> 00:48:18.640
could kill the golden goose. And so ads in big

854
00:48:18.640 --> 00:48:21.250
time sport lie awake at night worrying about

855
00:48:21.460 --> 00:48:26.830
gambling. And is this the kind of thing where

856
00:48:26.830 --> 00:48:30.280
someone who wanted to, you know, win a lot of

857
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:32.890
money on a game might bribe a player to throw the

858
00:48:32.890 --> 00:48:34.690
game or something like that? This is what they're

859
00:48:34.690 --> 00:48:37.690
concerned about. The gamblers are unbelievable at

860
00:48:37.690 --> 00:48:41.620
Penn State. We've had people paid by Las Vegas,

861
00:48:41.620 --> 00:48:47.790
let's say somebody. To. Work for them as an agent.

862
00:48:48.060 --> 00:48:50.220
There are some there are bona fide student at Penn

863
00:48:50.220 --> 00:48:53.700
State, but they're being paid by somebody to get

864
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:57.090
to become a friend of one of the football players

865
00:48:57.090 --> 00:48:59.490
or one of the basketball players. They're in a

866
00:48:59.490 --> 00:49:03.300
class with them and the student has no idea that

867
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:07.860
they're being paid by gamblers to get this person

868
00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:10.890
to throw a game. And so when they establish this

869
00:49:10.890 --> 00:49:13.530
kind of connection, then they finally talk to the

870
00:49:13.530 --> 00:49:15.720
person, you know, you can get fifty thousand

871
00:49:15.720 --> 00:49:18.270
dollars if you miss a couple of shots in the next

872
00:49:18.270 --> 00:49:20.820
game and make sure that that that that is

873
00:49:20.820 --> 00:49:26.730
happening. Today is a big time sport. And so it's

874
00:49:27.210 --> 00:49:31.860
it's scary. At Penn State, we did Buku education

875
00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:34.560
on that. I sat in on some of those sessions and

876
00:49:34.560 --> 00:49:37.470
all of our athletes heard stories about those

877
00:49:37.470 --> 00:49:40.080
kinds of events. Here's what you need to be

878
00:49:40.080 --> 00:49:41.940
worried about. Here's what you need to have your

879
00:49:41.940 --> 00:49:44.880
eyes open for because you can hurt yourself for

880
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:47.670
the rest of your life and you could hurt the sport

881
00:49:47.670 --> 00:49:49.710
of Penn State for the rest of your life if you're

882
00:49:49.710 --> 00:49:54.300
not careful with it. Because I'm always worried

883
00:49:54.300 --> 00:49:56.070
about athlete education, because I want to make

884
00:49:56.070 --> 00:49:57.840
sure as a history teacher that they get their

885
00:49:57.840 --> 00:50:00.540
history and that they they do their readings and

886
00:50:00.540 --> 00:50:02.280
they write their papers and they learn how to

887
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:04.590
write. And these are important skills, even if you

888
00:50:04.590 --> 00:50:06.480
go on to be a professional athlete and everything.

889
00:50:06.690 --> 00:50:08.580
But from what you're describing, it sounds like

890
00:50:08.580 --> 00:50:10.620
student athletes are getting a whole other kind of

891
00:50:10.620 --> 00:50:13.050
education, not just in the sport they're playing

892
00:50:13.050 --> 00:50:14.610
and certainly not just in the classes they're

893
00:50:14.610 --> 00:50:18.090
taking, but in navigating this kind of nefarious

894
00:50:18.090 --> 00:50:23.000
web that they're stuck in. Yeah. Yeah, related to

895
00:50:23.010 --> 00:50:25.670
the question that started off this part of the

896
00:50:25.670 --> 00:50:28.360
conversation. What should we think of money? I was

897
00:50:28.370 --> 00:50:30.920
point back to intrinsic versus extrinsic goods.

898
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:36.410
Say money is a great tool, but it's a tool and we

899
00:50:36.410 --> 00:50:38.690
get out, we get our priorities mixed up, we get

900
00:50:38.690 --> 00:50:40.820
ourselves in trouble, money corrupts. Or when it

901
00:50:40.820 --> 00:50:43.610
becomes the end, instead of opinions, we're

902
00:50:43.610 --> 00:50:46.370
supposed to use money to make sport better, not

903
00:50:46.370 --> 00:50:49.670
prostitutes or in every direction we can to

904
00:50:49.670 --> 00:50:52.420
generate more money. But that's often what happens

905
00:50:53.550 --> 00:50:56.150
with regard to that intrinsic extrinsic thing. One

906
00:50:56.150 --> 00:50:58.280
of the saddest things I ever experience as a

907
00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:02.040
faculty rep at Penn State. Was a kid, came into my

908
00:51:02.040 --> 00:51:05.670
office one day, a football player, and he said,

909
00:51:05.670 --> 00:51:08.520
Coach, they call me coach, I wasn't a coach coach.

910
00:51:09.030 --> 00:51:11.580
You know, when I played football in high school,

911
00:51:11.820 --> 00:51:14.970
it was so much fun. I live for football. It was

912
00:51:14.970 --> 00:51:18.030
the greatest game, he said. But I have to tell you

913
00:51:18.030 --> 00:51:23.100
now, it's a job. Yeah, I don't like to go to

914
00:51:23.100 --> 00:51:27.540
practice anymore. It's too much. And to have

915
00:51:27.540 --> 00:51:30.240
somebody do the reverse trip, the one that Greg

916
00:51:30.240 --> 00:51:33.180
and I are about, where they love sport and then

917
00:51:33.180 --> 00:51:36.840
came to hate it or dislike it is the opposite

918
00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:39.750
direction. Rather than starting with something

919
00:51:39.750 --> 00:51:41.550
that's new to you, you're not sure you're going to

920
00:51:41.550 --> 00:51:44.610
like it and end up in a dance for life until

921
00:51:44.610 --> 00:51:50.870
you're my age and you still do it. Now, I think I

922
00:51:50.870 --> 00:51:53.390
think a lot of kids probably have a story like

923
00:51:53.390 --> 00:51:55.010
that one where they were really jazzed about

924
00:51:55.010 --> 00:51:58.370
something and something just killed it for them,

925
00:51:58.370 --> 00:52:01.580
unfortunately. Yeah, that is the Aspen Institute

926
00:52:02.060 --> 00:52:04.130
in Colorado does a bunch of research on this with

927
00:52:04.490 --> 00:52:06.650
Utah state academics. I believe, if I remember

928
00:52:06.650 --> 00:52:09.440
right at some school in Utah and their most recent

929
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.340
report said, kids quit you. We're going to issue

930
00:52:13.340 --> 00:52:17.290
sport at age 11. And one of the leading reasons

931
00:52:17.290 --> 00:52:18.780
they give is it's not fun anymore.

932
00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:25.830
And 11 too much pressure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot

933
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:28.420
of mean and like you said earlier, I mean nowadays

934
00:52:29.530 --> 00:52:32.850
because money sport is can be such a ticket, right?

935
00:52:32.860 --> 00:52:34.840
It can be your ticket to college. It can be your

936
00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:37.120
ticket to fame and fortune. Afterward you can be

937
00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:41.800
set if you get into the right sport. And so

938
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:43.360
there's all this pressure that, oh, you're showing

939
00:52:43.360 --> 00:52:45.220
some talent. Oh, you're showing some potential.

940
00:52:45.610 --> 00:52:48.040
You need to harness it or you might not even be

941
00:52:48.040 --> 00:52:50.290
competitive later on. You might not be competitive

942
00:52:50.290 --> 00:52:52.300
when you're 15 if you don't harness it by the time

943
00:52:52.300 --> 00:52:54.550
you're 11 or you will and you won't be having any

944
00:52:54.550 --> 00:52:57.850
fun anyway. So what was the point? The other thing

945
00:52:57.850 --> 00:52:59.580
you've got to remember is it's a lottery ticket.

946
00:52:59.590 --> 00:53:01.900
Most kids, doesn't matter how much they train,

947
00:53:01.900 --> 00:53:03.520
aren't going to be good enough to get a college

948
00:53:03.520 --> 00:53:06.010
scholarship. And it's a very expensive lottery

949
00:53:06.010 --> 00:53:10.040
ticket, which means even if you landed. Most kids

950
00:53:10.040 --> 00:53:13.460
don't get full rides even in Division one, unless

951
00:53:13.460 --> 00:53:16.940
it's football or basketball, and that means if

952
00:53:16.940 --> 00:53:19.790
you're spending 10 grand a year on training over a

953
00:53:19.790 --> 00:53:22.040
six or seven, eight, 10 year period, you start at

954
00:53:22.040 --> 00:53:24.500
five. It's going to be 10, 12 years and 10 grand a

955
00:53:24.500 --> 00:53:27.170
year. It doesn't matter how much scholarship you

956
00:53:27.170 --> 00:53:29.270
get, you're going to get you're going to end up in

957
00:53:29.270 --> 00:53:29.660
the hole.

958
00:53:31.780 --> 00:53:34.180
And then for those athletes who maybe they even do

959
00:53:34.180 --> 00:53:35.890
get a full ride to college, but they don't make

960
00:53:35.890 --> 00:53:38.710
the pros and they've sacrificed a lot of education

961
00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:40.270
and their own health, et cetera, et cetera, to

962
00:53:40.270 --> 00:53:43.390
excel at the sport, you know, then what do you do

963
00:53:43.390 --> 00:53:46.510
when you're twenty three years old in a time have

964
00:53:46.510 --> 00:53:49.270
been used up a bit. You define your whole life

965
00:53:49.270 --> 00:53:51.130
around this one goal? No.

966
00:53:53.210 --> 00:53:56.090
So I don't want to end on this kind of a sad note,

967
00:53:56.390 --> 00:53:59.720
what what then is our responsibility as humanists,

968
00:53:59.720 --> 00:54:02.680
as sports humanists, as not so sports humanist, as

969
00:54:03.350 --> 00:54:05.090
someone who enjoys watching or someone who enjoys

970
00:54:05.090 --> 00:54:07.070
teaching, what is our responsibility or what can

971
00:54:07.070 --> 00:54:12.650
we do to intervene in this kind of process that

972
00:54:12.650 --> 00:54:14.360
we've been talking about? What can we do to ensure

973
00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:16.580
that sports continues for the love of it and not

974
00:54:16.580 --> 00:54:19.790
for the cash of it? Philosophically, I would say

975
00:54:19.790 --> 00:54:22.070
we have to emphasize, play and then emphasize,

976
00:54:22.070 --> 00:54:24.350
play and then emphasize, play and then emphasize,

977
00:54:24.350 --> 00:54:28.770
play again, paradoxically. I think the number one

978
00:54:28.770 --> 00:54:33.360
goal, which I think is very difficult at this

979
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:35.010
point, but if we wanted to make a difference, the

980
00:54:35.010 --> 00:54:37.740
number one goal would to reinvigorate physical

981
00:54:37.740 --> 00:54:41.500
education both in our universities and schools and

982
00:54:41.590 --> 00:54:46.500
I would say education and opportunity. Some people

983
00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:48.550
don't like to move because they're not good at it.

984
00:54:50.640 --> 00:54:52.620
They haven't had a good physical education

985
00:54:52.620 --> 00:54:54.690
experience and haven't learned how to catch a ball.

986
00:54:54.690 --> 00:54:57.480
I throw a ball or how to swim or how to ski or how

987
00:54:57.480 --> 00:55:01.500
to bike and so forth. We need good teachers who

988
00:55:01.530 --> 00:55:04.470
educate them. You know, my wife was an English

989
00:55:04.470 --> 00:55:07.710
teacher and her job was to turn people on to good

990
00:55:07.710 --> 00:55:11.430
literature novels. And it's a hard job. A lot of

991
00:55:11.430 --> 00:55:13.500
kids don't like to read. They don't like the

992
00:55:13.500 --> 00:55:16.260
getting the books. We face the same thing in phys

993
00:55:16.290 --> 00:55:18.870
ed. Some kids don't like to swim. They're scared.

994
00:55:19.140 --> 00:55:21.660
They're afraid of the water. They don't like to do

995
00:55:21.660 --> 00:55:25.590
things to make them sweat. And so education is

996
00:55:25.590 --> 00:55:28.800
crucial. And the second thing is opportunity that

997
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:31.770
we have to have more playgrounds, more places

998
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:35.610
where everybody, no matter how skilled you are or

999
00:55:35.610 --> 00:55:39.000
how rich you are or whatever, gets a chance to

1000
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:44.190
experience the joy of movement. OK, great. Well, I

1001
00:55:44.190 --> 00:55:46.950
will end on that note, thank you very much, Dr.

1002
00:55:46.950 --> 00:55:49.230
Kretschmer, for joining us today. Thank you, Dr.

1003
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:51.180
Meyer, for joining the Institute for Humanities

1004
00:55:51.180 --> 00:55:55.830
again and for talking to me today. Any final

1005
00:55:55.830 --> 00:55:58.800
thoughts before I sign off, sign us off of

1006
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:02.280
Facebook? I would just say I'm very proud of Dr.

1007
00:56:02.550 --> 00:56:04.830
Meyer and it's wonderful to see him thriving down

1008
00:56:04.830 --> 00:56:07.680
there in Mississippi. Thank you very much. And

1009
00:56:07.800 --> 00:56:09.720
thank you, Julie, for hosting us. This was a great

1010
00:56:09.720 --> 00:56:12.000
conversation. All right. Well, thank you again.

1011
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:14.450
And for all of you who are listening and watching,

1012
00:56:14.730 --> 00:56:17.070
I'm looking forward to seeing you at our next What

1013
00:56:17.070 --> 00:56:19.110
Are the Humanities Anyway program, which will be

1014
00:56:19.110 --> 00:56:21.080
on the traditional humanities sometime in March.

1015
00:56:21.090 --> 00:56:23.760
So stay tuned. And again, thank you both very much.

1016
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.370
Thank you. Thank you.